Lifting While Climbing Podcast with Dr. Nima Alamdari

Holly Smithson

Welcome, everyone, to this edition of our Lifting While Climbing podcast. I'm so glad to see you all back here. I'm Holly Smithson, Athena's President and CEO, and your host for today's podcast. Now look, I know there's a lot of volatility in the market. There's a lot of very unsettling activity. And I just think all of this calls for us to change it up here at Athena, just as you would expect. And so in that vein, I am really excited to introduce Dr. Nema Alamdari, and he is our guest in today's podcast, and he's going to be our first ally, official ally on the show. And Nima, thank you so much for taking some time out and sharing in these very wild times.

Nima Alamdari

Of course. Thanks for having me, Holly.

Holly Smithson

I I tell you, we had this wonderful lunch last month, and the more I got to talk to you and get to know you and certainly learn about your mom, it occurred to me that you're exactly the type of champion and advocate that we need to put the spotlight on and share your story with more folks that are actually looking for other men to model the type of allyship behavior and to give them license to do something other than what they've traditionally been exposed to in terms of leadership. Like leadership and allyship being obviously a central theme to that. So welcome. And how does it sit with you to be our first ally on the show?

Nima Alamdari

Oh my gosh. I guess I'm definitely honored. Admittedly, I'm a bit nervous to be the first guy on the show, but I'm really excited to join the conversation and hopefully it just adds some perspective. I mean, I've been fortunate to be around such trailblazing women from my mother and colleagues, and I certainly see myself as an ally, and I think that that's an ongoing responsibility, really, especially now, as you mentioned, the current climate is shaky, and I think it's just really important that we represent, especially in such uncertain times.

Holly Smithson

What I thought was really fascinating about your story that that certainly aligns with our STEM community, and I just want to set the table, if I may. I know that you are the Chief Science Officer at Revolve. You have a PhD from the University of Nottingham in physiology and muscle metabolism. You also are a honorary professor at Harvard Medical School. And then on your downtime, you are a author and you are a speaker and a board adviser. So I love the perspective and I love the different pots that you have your hands in. I imagine you have a wealth of experience to share with our audience. I would like to start off and ask you how you define online allyship?

Nima Alamdari

I think it's a great question. I think really allyship to me is more around action and walking the line. I think it's really not a title at all, I'd say for me, it's about showing up when people are not in the room as a male counterpart to create space for people and then just be willing to challenge systems or dynamics that don't serve people equally. I think for me, it's about being in tune with your antennas, especially as a male counterpart, listening more, just doing things with intention and just basically committing to learning and being better. I got so much out of our conversation when we had lunch, and I think that's part of the evolution to just continue to learn, continue to be a better counterpart.

Holly Smithson

When I hear you define allyship, Obviously, the main tenet is action. To me, it's just a central theme of leadership. As you think about leadership, your job is to extract all of the talent in the room. Or outside of the room, or outside of the room or outside of the building or across the enterprise. The notion that lifting up not just part of the team and marginalizing part of the team and disenfranchizing part of the team, but extracting the other half doesn't really sit well with how we think of leadership and action. Let's talk about an example, and that's really what I'd love for you to share with our audience and talk about how on your day-to-day journey, how allyship has really supported you. When we had lunch, you talked about you like, Holly, I was having, I think it was an all-hands meeting or maybe it was an off-site, and you noticed something that just really didn't occur to you because it was just a natural assembly of your high-performing team. Until you find something, please share that.

Nima Alamdari

Yeah, definitely. I was thinking about this, actually, of just like, how am I an ally? And in part, am I doing a good job? So I took it upon myself to ask my team, which I think is also an important feedback loop. But I would say that just on the daily, it actually starts in my home. I think being an ally within my own family is setting the precedent. And that's, I think being a better son or being a better brother to my sister, being a better husband to my wife and basically being there to support, listen, and be besides the women that are in my life, and that starts at home. I take that on to work. I don't know if I would say I'm the perfect ally or not, because I think it's not a title I can give myself. It's a title in action, and I think it's a commitment to just be better. But I would say that at work, it is intentional. It's intentional by... I shared with you that I walked into a happy hour right after work, and I sat around the table with my team, and I realized that...

Nima Alamdari

Hold on a second, the 15 people that were just around the table that I was the only male. I didn't even realize the makeup of my own team. It wasn't the full team there. It was the people that were in the office that day. But it struck me. I feel very I'm fortunate, even within my team, six of the seven leadership roles within my team, serious divisions and departments. Six of those seven are held in STEM with scientists, engineers. We got, I'd say, expertise, top talent, but they're women. I think that's not just a stat, whether it be a happy hour or the makeup of the team. I think it's just the result of hiring the best, but also trusting the team to hire well as well. Those choices have led, I think, to... I'm proud to have that makeup of the team, but it represents, I think, personal professional traits and characteristics that are top of the game. You mentioned, what does that look on the daily at work? I think it is conscious. It's who's at the table, who's being heard, am Am I creating the space, the right space for individuals to feel safe to brainstorm, bring their best ideas through, know that they're valued, and know that they'll be heard?

And it's my job as a leader, as a chief science officer of Ritual, that we're trying to pioneer an industry and come up with products and solutions that can really count and serve a population. I have to draw from the team. I need their ideas to be put forward. I need them to succeed and grow for us to be effective collectively. And so I think that that's what it looks like, and I try to just champion that behind the scenes. I I enjoy that process, and I enjoy the role I have. And I think I'm charged and I feel that responsibility. But I encourage people to step into opportunities, even if they don't think that they're quite ready I see just myself as a partner and sharing a mindset, being one team, and just basically being on one trajectory is really the goal.

Holly Smithson

I love that. When I think about your comment, I go, I'm a little nervous being the first. I don't think that... I'm not here to say that I'm the best ally. It's a commitment. It's not this state of perfection. And those are the things that we all, certainly in this audience, experience and being the first or being the only. And, well, I'm not going to be the best as the only in the room. So there's a level of self-awareness, which I love and that you shared, number one. Number two, there's also grace. We're all navigating a very wild time in our politically charged climate. And I know a lot of people are frightened, and rightfully so. And so that's why it's exciting to have more NEMA's in the world step up and say, I don't have it all figured out. I don't know that I'm the answer. I don't want to be the first one to lead this initiative, but recognizing that there is a need. There is a need, and it's not even gender-specific. It's gender-neutral. It's allyship in general, and that we're all in this together and to be reminded, like the folks at Ritual.

We need to be reminded that we need to take allyship as a ritual. I know that's the tenet of your company and wellness. When we start to adopt with intention these daily habits of leadership, what does it look like? Optimizing talent, boosting performance, and having a really healthy environment where everybody gets to contribute in whatever fashion helps the larger mission. I really appreciate some of those comments that you shared. I would love to move the conversation a little bit. When you have, and not only at Ritual, but in all of your other endeavors, when you have stood up in an ally behavior, did you ever get blowback? Did you ever get any discomfort? Was there a price to pay? Excuse me. How did you embrace that? Or do you just like the challenge and want to instinctively lead with your leadership qualities?

Nima Alamdari

I think it's a great question. Whether It has cost me. I don't think it's cost me anything, actually. It's certainly enriched and motivated me. I'd say that... I wouldn't even call it being a support, but let's say being a partner. That definitely gives me energy, no doubt about that. I think that I would carry that through any stage, hopefully. I have an opportunity to do that more, whether it be through teaching or coaching or whatnot. I think that if there was ever an opportunity cost, I think that that would be just on the instances and on the short term. I think it's those moments and those meetings on the daily where I think it takes some confidence to let somebody else have the platform and have the moment to shine. I think it takes a moment to not misstep there. I think that becomes the area where not needing to claim the idea or take center stage or actually just be the filter and the gatekeeper of good ideas. I think that that's one I could argue it is a potential cost or could be perceived as a cost, but really it's a misstep. I think that that's the difference between championing work and being center stage.

Nima Alamdari

But I think it's such a great question. I think ultimately it's, who am I really trying to impress? What's so important that I have to put myself in a position to be recognized and claimed? I think, to me, when it comes to who I want to work with, who I want to surround myself with at any level, really, it's those people and companies that recognize allyship and those that recognize collaborative leadership as a strength. I'd say that's been my recipe in career since I ever started to work. And what has that done for me to hold back at the right moment in the right time? It's actually given me incredible opportunities. It's allowed me to get to my dream jobs or be on advisory boards. It's allowed me to be funded on research grants, specifically to represent underrepresented groups and women's health. That gives me a lot of joy. Again, just going back, I don't claim to be a perfect ally, but I know that that recipe not only leads to, I think, more successful growth and opportunities for people that are around me, but has also helped me in career as well. So, yeah, I don't think there's been an opportunity cost, but there are instances that I think one needs to know when to hold back.

Holly Smithson

Excuse me. I want to take I want to challenge you on something here about holding back. And I want to challenge you on that framing because are we holding back or are we creating space? That reframe for people to like, Oh, I have to hold back. If that's really, I guess, the action that allyship requires, I want to challenge the language on that a bit, because what I heard you say is that every time you're sharing knowledge or sharing space, because it is sharing, it is a sharing, it actually operates on this notion that you see abundance.

Nima Alamdari

Yeah.

Holly Smithson

And where we have to hold back, that suggests there's a level of scarcity, where there's only so much of the pie. So I have to hold back and give you a slice, but then that means that my slice is less or fewer. And so that's where I think leadership, certainly in today's climate, there's just a huge opportunity for reframing, because when we operate from a place of scarcity, that is going to multiply. We are going to feel like we have less than and less than. And when we come from a place of abundance, and I'm certainly dancing with this whole concept every day in this wild, wacky world. But I think when leadership in certain modern day leadership, it behooves us to think in terms in that framework of abundance. What are your thoughts on that reframing?

Nima Alamdari

I I love that because there's value in even this discussion, right? That's valuable to me, certainly, even in terms of choice of vocabulary, even if the intent really is a building platform, because I think by intent, when I say something like holding back, my intent really is you're building space, you're actually building a platform and you're choosing to create favorable conditions somebody to thrive. That's an active build-up scenario where as an executive for a company, and you've probably been in a similar scenario, Holly, where your counterpart as an executive member at a sea level may say, Nima, come in and tell us about so and so, and expectation being that you're the deliverer, right, of effectively, maybe some solid work by somebody in the team that is waiting for the opportunity to show their brilliance or their outcome, it becomes like an active, it becomes an active point where you don't be the deliverer of that information and that presentation, but you create the space for that individual to be around that table. And so 100 %, I think that completely resonates. But I would say on the day, those are the moments that are the difference.

Nima Alamdari

And by intent, that was where I was trying to go with that. But I think It's very, very important to think those scenarios through, not only from vocabulary, but by action.

Holly Smithson

Yeah. And what I liked what you said in that reframe is that co-creation, right? And that's powerful. One of the other things as I'm listening to you and given a use case scenario, leadership is defined, and there's obviously a million different definitions, and the ones that align with your values are the ones that we abide by. But for For me, leadership is not having followers. It's generating leaders. When I come to you and say, Hey, I want to know how... Give me the pitch on how are we executing on that go-to-market strategy. Well, nobody can tell it better than Marjorie, so Marjorie, take it away. And then Marjorie is leading, and you're like, That's the sign. I know that older generations, it's the control of the information and the possession of the strategy and on the financials. That was an older generation model of superiority or value. But you're the leader of our time. I mean, your generation is just the things that you're saying. They're just natural for you. And so let's talk a little bit about how you've been conditioned, for lack of a better word. I know your mom is a pretty extraordinary and iconic woman in tech.

I would love for you to talk a little bit about the model that she was for you or is for you. And and how that informed the leadership and the man that you are today.

Nima Alamdari

Yeah, I think my mom definitely, I'd say there's probably been some nurture at play with my mother. I think she's an incredible trailblazer, as I mentioned. She was an influence. She certainly taught me how, I think, to show up and embrace leadership in women and beyond at a very young age, actually. It was funny. My mom, I think Maybe it was by choice, but she involved me in a lot of her own decision making through career. She was an academic and involved me. I remember her asking whether she should apply for being head of department, whether she should apply for being a full professor, and should she take on, ultimately, the role of being a dean and head of College of Aeronautics to the point that would I be okay to take care of my a sister or be with a babysitter. That was dialog at the age of maybe nine years old, 10 years old. I was saying to her, she was telling me this, I was saying to her, You need to speak with authority, by the way, mom, when you go. Because I saw at the time in the UK, the politicians, the good ones and the bad ones and how they were speaking.

That was what she was extracting from me at a young age. I'd say being an advocate for women in leadership probably started at the age of nine or 10. But I think that she's very impressive. She traversed career from leading the College of Aeronautics in the UK becoming an executive, ultimately leading marketing at Boeing Company. But she showed me the power of representation. I think she showed me what it means to come from actually an underrepresented background herself, but to stand tall and to thrive in those positions, even when some of her colleagues were asking her if she's heard of glass ceilings, which is also, I think, pretty remarkable. And I Holly, I think there's... Also, I'd say that my father is right there, too. And he held the highest executive positions at those times in London, but he was the biggest ally to my mother. I think that he demonstrated partnership, I think, at every point in at least our family's journey. I think in many ways, my mother's certainly had a major influence on me, but he also showed me how to act, how to think, and how to walk that line. I think that's been good.

Nima Alamdari

From this nurture, I would say probably nurture, that's definitely brought me into what partner and wife would I want? What traits and characteristics am I attracted to fundamentally? And then what energy do I get for seeing her fulfill her dreams and be successful. She's a trailblazer and pursued her career. But that, I think, is such an enriching circle. I think that also extends to my work, at least, and how I think of individuals, how I want to be shoulder to shoulder and partner with people and see people thrive, genuinely.

Holly Smithson

I was not aware of that story about your mom. I think about for the moms in our audience who struggle with guilt because they're working, they're pursuing their passion, they want to contribute to humanity through stem, but they still have this obligation to be there for their children. The idea that your mom mitigates that guilt or that stress, very normal stress, but I'm going to collaborate with my son, and we're going to have a conversation and inner dialog around this. Then there's not going to be this notion that I'm just abandoning my son to take care of the baby's sister. So, wow. I mean, wow. If that little tidbit isn't powerfully salient for our audience, that's badass. And what a beautiful pattern that she obviously followed in her career into the executive ranks and then obviously passed on to her children into their leadership model. Wow. Okay, so my next question is, I want to get into the mechanics. And what I'd like to do is ask you your take and your feedback for the allies out there about some of the ways that ally looks like. What is it? Let's get into some scenarios.

Outside of, I'm going to give her the floor, I'm going give him an opportunity to defend or prepare, can you share some other examples that folks can take out of this conversation that might align with how people can change up?

Nima Alamdari

Yeah, I guess it's the recommendation.

Holly Smithson

I think that speaking to, I've got some really great friend, guy friends, good people, good men that I think also try their best to be a great ally.

Nima Alamdari

I think from what I see and what I would extend to my male counterparts is really start by listening. I can't understate that... I don't know if it's a guy thing, but in general, we're not great listeners. I think that it's certainly something that requires some thought to action and to incorporate on the daily basis. It means not interrupting conversations and trying to put forward your idea. It means not formulating an answer when somebody else is talking. That's key to creating space to allow people to be heard and allowing people to put their best selves forward, particularly when you are in the same room as somebody. I think that that would be one tactic that I think is really important to men. I see the difference in that when it comes to listening between men and women, to be fully frank. Sorry, guys, but that's what I see. I think that being the first guy on your show is a privilege, but it makes you nervous, too. So the same goes for trying to step into just being a better ally and being open to modification, to evolution. I think you don't need to have all the answers, but it's important that you're engaged on this topic.

That can be speaking to people like you. That can be reading up on some areas through scholars or conferences or symposium that speak to this and show you the value to help you build a mental framework. Then I would extend that no matter what the situation, it has to come from an authentic place. It has to come from a point of integrity, doing what's right, a belief in fairness, and being open to build people up.

Holly Smithson

I would say active listening is probably the most underdeveloped trait and skill in our time, certainly in the attention economy. The opportunity for greater engagement is certainly a focus area for Athena as 10% of our members portfolio are comprised of men that we are actively recruiting and definitely want to engage them. Then, of course, the education that you suggested, it's two ways. It's not here with a laundry list and say, Nema, go execute. Again, I just think having these ongoing conversations is so critical and recognizing that there's a level of discomfort. When we're navigating new areas, new discovery, unchartered territory, discomfort is... I mean, that's why we're all in stem. There's so much unknown. Are you kidding me? That is, I think, one of the characteristics that scientists and engineers generally possess if they're going to go into this field. So I really think there's alignment, as you noted, in terms of embracing the discomfort and really building our muscle. And to me, it's the leadership muscle. To me, as a journalist training, to me, language is everything. It's the most important thing for societies. And I genuinely think that leadership and allyship is synonymous.

Nima Alamdari

Yeah, great.

Holly Smithson

And so I really appreciate you continuing to say, Hey, I'm a little nervous here. I don't want to be the poster. Am I going to be the How did I get here? And it literally is just I'm genuinely interested in being a part of the conversation and the experiences that I have. If I can lend them to you and they work for you and they align with what's core to your leadership values, then you're contributing. I really appreciate that more than you know.

Nima Alamdari

Thank you.

Holly Smithson

All right. We're going to wrap up our podcast. I would love for you to look into your crystal ball, if you will, and talk a little bit about where allyship, what's the future of allyship in terms of where we are in this politically charged climate, where there's a huge return to the patriarchy, where there's a deletion of women and diversity. And look, the political wins, they blow, they go, and who knows? But nothing is static. Times are changing, and there's There's been a lot of correction, certainly after the murder of George Floyd. Then some would argue there was an overcorrection, and now we're going back, and then this is the up and flow of free markets. What are your thoughts on allyship and where there's going to be a lot to look forward to and how people can step into that?

Nima Alamdari

Well, I totally agree. These times will pass. I I look forward to that as well, because I think that the current conditions, there's headwinds, right? There's challenges, and those are coming together on the daily. But in my opinion, now is the time for calling. I think it means to be conscious about your surroundings and start to draw from within. We don't need to be victim, any of us, to even company quotas, like legal rhetoric changes conversations. But what can we do and how can we draw from our powers from within and influence our surroundings? Whether that starts at the home, what we bring to the workplace and what we bring to our culture and society. And I think that owning your story and being an ally as a counterpart, being a partner to the right people at the right time in the right place, and stewarding this in the right direction by really doing what's right. The moral compass here is on the side of allyship and making sure there's equity and fairness for everybody. I think that I'm excited to continue walking the walk and not just talking. Hopefully, my actions and the actions of others can show that, particularly in a period where this will pass.

But stewardship and allyship need to remain and be a constant.

Holly Smithson

Well, I have so enjoyed our conversation, and my hunch when we had lunch last month is spot on. This has just been an awesome exchange. The experiences that you've shared and the humility that you've shown is certainly inspiring, and I hope that we can replicate more and more NEMA. I'm dropping the seeds. I'm going to manifest that vision. I really appreciate you coming into the studio and sharing your story and your leadership as a Modern Ally. So thank you.

Nima Alamdari

Thank you, Holly. Such a privilege. Thank you so much for having me on.

Holly Smithson

All right. So that wraps up this edition of our Lifting While Climbing podcast with Dr. Aneema Alamdari. We are so excited, and I can promise you this, we are on to something big. I look forward to seeing you next month at our Lifting While Climbing podcast. Thanks for joining us.